Critical Role’s Noshir Dalal Describes Downfall as Brennan Lee Mulligan’s Moral Woodchipper (Interview)

The following interview contains spoilers for Critical Role Campaign 3, Episode 100.

Noshir Dalal, a guest at Critical Role‘s table for Candela Obscura‘s Circe of Tide and Bone and the Mortal Kombat 1 One-Shot Sindel Vs. The Realms, has made his Exandrian debut in Downfall, Campaign 3’s current arc set during the historic destruction of Aeor. The Escapist caught up with Dalal before Downfall‘s Campaign 3, Episode 101 to discuss the Calamity, guest Dungeon Master Brennan Lee Mulligan, and his unique divine envoy, The Emissary.

The Escapist: I feel like you’ve come into Critical Role in an almost unenviable position, having Aabria Iyengar run you through a horror campaign with Candela Obscura and having Mulligan with Downfall. Those are intense people to be sitting across the table from; how would you compare and contrast them [as Game Masters]?

Noshir Dalal: I guess first and foremost, I’ll say that with both Aabria and Brennan when you’re in the presence of just masterful storytellers – and it’s actually a lesson that I’ve learned repeatedly and still have to learn – they can handle anything that comes their way. I think as an actor, you spend a lot of time trying to take care of the people who are telling stories with you, and both Brennan and Aabria have made it clear they need no taking care of. It’s wild to watch them work.

Aabria was really interesting because she set a tone in Candela where – you know, obviously, there was social commentary and all that – but really, it’s about the monsters within ourselves. It was a world that was clearly defined but within which we could kind of do – we could do a lot of stuff. And that was a lot of fun for me, especially the character creation part of that. I had a blast with it.

So, to then stepping into Exandria, where there is a lot of lore that has already been kinda hard-baked, was a very different experience. And I had such a good time, but it definitely made me very, very nervous. I spent a lot of time with the lore masters, Dani [Carr] mostly, kinda being like, “am I allowed to do this? Am I gonna get scolded if I do this?” And, like, “if I do this, will the world break in half if I say this is a fact?” She was awesome about being like, “No, no, everything you’re saying is fine” and kind of giving me the permission to do what I want to do. And Brennan did that as well.

Aabria and Brennan are so very different in their approaches. It felt like in The Circle of Tide and Bone Aabria was creating a world that was like a woodchipper, and you were voluntarily walking into it. And it was epic and awesome and horrifying. Whereas Brennan has created sort of a moral woodchipper. And it makes sense coming from a philosopher. But the question becomes: what part of the woodchipper are you? What is your involvement in this process? What is doing you harm in this world, but also what harm are you doing? And I found those questions at the table really eye-opening and completely changed a lot of my character.

I can’t tell you, I was taking notes like crazy cause there must have been like 36 times in the first two episodes where I was like: “Oh, that completely changes everything I thought about with my character.” And these crazy 90-degree pivots, which were just amazing, wonderful surprises.

Were there specific moments you can point to that changed how you were playing The Emissary? Especially with [Episode 100] – those moral complications you were talking about – there were so many of those layers added.

Well, it’s interesting because I have to track two very different roles simultaneously, which is The Emissary and The Law Bearer. Because their reactions to things are very, very different.

The Emissary, in a lot of ways, has no concept of history. They were literally born yesterday. Which is kind of wonderful and new; there’s an amazing innocence that comes with that. But like anyone who’s been around small children also knows, that innocence also means oftentimes they don’t realize when they’re doing harm.

Whereas, I think the Law Bearer is shielded from a lot of the events going on right now because the Gods have no direct access to what’s happening on Aeor. So, I kind of had to log things because if there comes a moment later where that info gets to The Law Bearer, I need to be able to track where she stands, which was a trip.

It’s interesting for me because The Emissary sees almost everyone in the party as superior, almost like an uncle or an aunt. And then you have these Seraphin, these holy warriors, and they’re like creatures of legend. And to see them as less than the ideal and to see what they’ve been going through, I think was really hard for The Emissary to process and left them with a lot of questions.

There are so many times where I think The Emissary desperately wanted to ask Law Bearer for guidance and couldn’t have it. And I think that was really hard for them.

I get a sense that there’s a pervading loyalty to the Law Bearer with The Emissary. But are you saying that that’s been shaken up a little?

How do I answer this and keep it spoiler-free?

Here’s the thing about The Emissary. The Law Bearer – justice, rule of law, civilization, balance – a lot of her purview are things that are best done with objectivity. Right or wrong is very easy to do from like 5,000 feet up, you know? But when you get to boots on the ground, things get very, very muddy. And all of a sudden, the shades of grey become very, very difficult to navigate.

And I think The Emissary came in with a very clear idea for what is happening and what they are here to do and is now being faced with a world that is nothing like what they were prepared for. And in an ideal world, the Law Bearer would love for The Emissary to have been almost like an automaton, completely driven by the directives that were given. But I think in the transformation that has to happen going from being part of the divine to being flesh and blood – or, in this case, ice and stone – things have to change, and that kind of impartial objectivity cannot survive in the real world. So, The Emissary’s kinda constantly redefining itself. And I find that really interesting. It’s definitely changed the way The Emissary has seen other members of the party, for good and for bad.

I wanted to talk a little bit about your relationship with Taliesin Jaffe, and this sense of the divine as a family I feel like is a huge theme that’s running through Downfall… playing against Jaffe, there’s that added layer, that child of divorce layer you have going on.

It’s interesting. I love your coining of it as child of divorce. Because, I think, in actuality, The Emissary is in many ways a love letter to Asha, to the Wild Mother. Law Bearer could have made The Emissary out of steel and iron but instead chose elements from nature. We see the scales of justice in [Episode 100], and they are essentially plant-based, plants and stone. So, I think she would never admit it to anyone, and Wild Mother knows, but there’s a romantic in Law Bearer. I mean, she’ll kill you if you say it to her face, but it’s there for sure. And I think in a lot of ways, especially because she knew how much it would hurt Wild Mother to discover that she wasn’t there, this was kinda an ode to her, I guess I’d say.

I love that. And you had not just the juicy role-play moments with Jaffe, but also the team-up during combat. How does it feel playing a level 20 character in these scenarios that Mulligan’s throwing at you?

I will be the first person to admit that I was way out of my depth as far as how to play a twentieth-level character. I’d never done anything remotely close. And if it hadn’t been for Nick [Marini] spending like three hours with me before our first episode, helping me figure out what the heck I was doing with my character sheet, I would have been so lost.

What I didn’t want to do was spend any of my prep time delving into technical mastery because A. I knew I was never gonna get there, and B. I don’t find a lot of joy in the mastery of the rules and the stats and whatnot. What I love is the character story that drives what’s going on, and luckily, I had people like Nick there to help me focus more on that.

Combat with The Wild Mother is a little different. We don’t get to see it as much as I would like, but we have this kinda dream sequence where The Emissary sees the painting, the relief of the Law Bearer, and speaks to her and is given a directive, which I think he already knows, of making sure to keep Wild Mother safe. And so the idea of not just fighting – I mean fighting alongside a God – but at the same time knowing that he would throw himself in harm’s way if it meant protecting Wild Mother from a scratch if he could was really interesting.

I love the moments I got to have with Taliesin. Especially on the train when we were talking, and he talks about the forest with rules; it was beautiful. And at the end of it, Wild Mother rests her head on The Emissary, and it really shook me to think that’s the first time he’s experience a mother’s touch. It’s a relationship he will never have with the Law Bearer. And I think that kinda kills me. I mean, I couldn’t ask for a better mom than Taliesin, I guess.

I wanna rewind to the beginning of the development of this character. Because, after watching what you did in Candela Obscura, you just had this opulence you exuded that when I heard the cast of Downfall was gonna be divine, I was like, “Oh, Noshir’s perfect for that!” and then you pull something completely unexpected out of the hat!

What inspired playing a character that wasn’t a Prime Deity? Was that something that you came up with on your own, or was that a collaboration with you and Mulligan?

Brennan’s guidance was certainly super vital to how things kinda came together.

My idea for the Law Bearer in our… I don’t know if folks are ever gonna see the session zero from this. I hope they do because the ideas that were getting thrown around were just bonkers. As soon as Nick opened his mouth, I was like, “Oh my god, he’s amazing!” Abubakar [Salim] as well, oh my gosh.

In the session zero, we were given a chance to choose for ourselves which deities we wanted to represent, and everyone had brilliant ideas. And the idea I had for the Law Bearer was this notion of absolutes. And if law is her purview, then divine law is certainly the highest. And divine law says that there is a hierarchy in place, a natural order of things, which is gods and [then] mortals. And that has been broken once by Laura [Bailey]’s character. That event sowed so much chaos for the Law Bearer that for her, it is – this is never going to happen again.

To that end, this is my domain, and if mortals are going to try to transgress, I will not only hold that boundary. I will make it very clear to you why this is a threshold you should never cross. And make it very clear that you have flown way too close to the sun. I think there’s a terrifying decisiveness in her when it comes to breaking these kinds of rules. So, Law Bearer sets out with that in mind.

But one of the things we spoke about earlier is this idea that right and wrong, good and bad, works really well from a distance. But probably the biggest agent of chaos when it comes to law is love. Because you start coming up with reasons why it’s okay to bend the rules or “Oh, they didn’t mean it,” “That wasn’t what they meant, but the outcome was what it was,” or what have you, making exceptions. And that is something that the Law Bearer cannot afford.

So, one of the things I talked about with Brennan is the idea that one of the Law Bearer’s biggest fears would be to find herself a mortal and break her own rules in the name of protecting those she loves. Because if you do that, and that is your divine prerogative, what happens to you? If you are breaking your own covenants and the things that define you as who you are as a God, where does that leave you? And that is the reason she sends The Emissary – because she cannot be compromised by having to face and wade through shades of grey.

So, in the original session zero, you were playing the Law Bearer herself, and then that’s when The Emissary came to be?

In the original session zero, we got to choose which Gods we thought would be interesting, and each of the storytellers involved threw out a bunch. And we got to choose the fallen as well.

I was wondering if you got to choose Betrayers.

A couple of us had really juicy ideas [laughs] for playing Betrayer Gods. And I think, at the end, it was decided that it’d probably be best if we were all at least at the same side because otherwise, just the crazy amount of infighting and duplicity going on that would be a really hard party to run in only three episodes, I think. If anyone could do it, it would be Brennan.

So, at that time, I threw out the idea for the Law Bearer, and folks really responded to it. But it was later that I decided that she wouldn’t actually be present, that she would send an envoy. And when I threw that idea out to Brennan, he was like, “Oh-ho-ho, okay.” And I love how willing he was to roll with anything I threw out there.

It created a ton of challenges. Some challenges that I did not anticipate until the end. But it was wild, it was a wild ride.

Can you tease what any of those are?

Hmm, how could I do that? All I’ll say is there was a ton of narrative that happens behind the scenes in [Episode 101] that I really wish I could share that was almost all happening in headcanon because it had to happen so fast. And it messed me up. It threw me because I ended up surprising and kinda scaring myself, which was really interesting. I was grateful for the opportunity.

It was wild. And that Brennan gave me the room to play around with it was such a gift.

I’m really excited to see how this all plays out in the finale because I do get a sense that patience is a virtue with The Emissary. It was almost two hours into that first episode before you even appeared, and then there’s been this indication from Arcadia that there’s something in you that could be a turning point in what you’re trying to do on Aeor. You played that off, or The Emissary played that off, with a sense of naivety, but do you know what that is? Or is that a surprise that Brennan has in store for you?

I guess I’ll say this. If I wanted to make sure that certain wheels were put into motion and I’m in the presence of Gods who can read hearts and minds and do all that stuff. Ignorance is probably my greatest weapon.

I had a more light-hearted question, which is that in the first Critical Role Cooldown [for Downfall], Jaffe mentioned that Beck’s “Nitemare Hippy Girl” was on his character playlist for the Wild Mother. I was wondering if you had made a character playlist for The Emissary or your Candela character [Rajan Savarimuthu]?

I am not as sophisticated as Taliesin. And I think Nick had a playlist as well.

When I’m creating characters, I write.

My intro for the session zero for Rajan, I cut it down to a third of what it was when I first showed up because I was like no one’s gonna sit through all this crap. And for The Emissary, I think I have 20 pages or so.

I love headcanon. So, I end up writing a ton. I wrote a lot about relationships and then after… we actually had a great moment where we went around the table and talked about how our Gods related to every single God who was at the table, and that was before our campaign really began in [Episode 99]. And literally, when it was done, I went back to my hotel room and wrote another 15 pages cause I was like “Well, that changes everything!”

It sounds like you were having headcanons on the fly in that last episode.

Well, it’s interesting because with The Emissary, you have, from The Law Bearer’s perspective, you’ve taken like a wind-up toy, you’ve wound it up, and you placed it down. And you have an expectation of what it’s gonna do. But when you take a simple idea like that, that’s kinda objective and black and white in the realm of the divine, and you put that earthside, so to speak, it never goes the way you would expect.

I would love to be able to talk about stuff after [Episode 101] because… oh man. Brennan just, he just went completely – he just went all out.

It’s chonky. He said it’s gonna be chonky.

Yes, he did! And I did not know what chonky meant until it was too late!

He’s amazing.

I could talk to you about Downfall all day because your character is so fascinating. There’s that stoicism that I can tell the gears are turning both for you and the character that’s so interesting to watch.

It was a lot of fun, And I would – I should never do this – but I would go on Reddit or something, and after Downfall‘s cast was released, people were like, “Oh man, Rajan Savarimuthu, there’s gonna be some sort of – he’s gonna do some crazy stuff and oh my god!” And I was like, “Oh man… it’s not gonna be what you’re thinking.” And I’m touched at the warm reception that The Emissary has gotten. That’s always nice.

And what an amazing table to be a part of. I’ve really only gotten the chance to be at the table a couple of times over there at Critical Role. And every time I’m in the presence of masters, I learn so much. They’re just so supportive and so great.

Well, you’ve been so fun to watch in all the different narratives you’ve been apart of at the table, so I hope they keep bringing you back.

I would love nothing more.

Downfall: Part Three releases on July 25, 2024.